Jo Swinson

Cluster Munitions Bill - House of Commons debate

Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I begin by saying that my party, as it was in the other place, is very supportive of the Bill and will support its Second Reading today. I pay tribute to all those who have campaigned for the convention on cluster munitions and for the Bill to ratify it, in particular, as has been mentioned, the Cluster Munition Coalition and Landmine Action. I also pay tribute to the work that my noble Friend Lord Garden, who sadly is no longer with us, did on this issue. If he were here today, he would be very pleased to see the progress that the Bill is making.

As we have heard, of people killed by cluster munitions, the vast majority are civilians-the various briefings that I have read give estimates of anything between 85 per cent. and 98 per cent. That figure alone makes it entirely unjustifiable to use such weapons on a war footing. The killing of civilians is always a tragedy and the record of cluster bombs in doing that means that they are just wrong-they should not be part of a responsible, civilised country's arsenal. We cannot justify weapons that end up killing civilians in such huge numbers.

Apart from the moral argument, there is the argument about counter-productivity. Increasingly in the aftermath of the conflicts in which we have been involved, securing support from the local population has been a vital part of our operations. Our experience in recent years in both Iraq and Afghanistan has proved-if proof were needed-that the civilian deaths make it much more difficult to undertake that process of winning hearts and minds. When a country is trying to rebuild its agricultural production and economic development, the litter of cluster bombs makes it difficult to undertake basic food production, and rebuilding the infrastructure is far too much of a challenge. To be frank, it is a challenge that such countries can do without.

There is also a strong argument that cluster munitions, as well as being dangerous to civilians, are not militarily effective. I understand that 78,000 were used in Kosovo, but they destroyed 30 only major items of military equipment, so they do not exactly have a successful military record, either.

Of course, there is also the human cost of what these munitions do. I recently had the opportunity to visit Chechnya as part of a delegation with the estimable Lord Judd and the all-party group on human rights. Although that was a fascinating and perhaps somewhat depressing visit in terms of human rights, one of the high points was going to speak to the children in local schools and seeing how they are trying to rebuild the future of that country. Having said that, seeing with one's own eyes children who are amputees-who have lost limbs-as a result of the cluster munitions that were heavily used by Russia in the conflict in the 1990s brings home what a travesty they are and what a lasting impact they have. As has been said, this is not just about the killing that is done but about the maiming and the loss of limbs, which obviously have an impact throughout a person's life. That is particularly difficult to think about when children are involved.

The Minister talked about the just way of waging war. How one can have a just war is a moral dilemma we often discuss, but we have now concluded that certain types of munition and arsenal are not just and that they should not be used. Excellent progress has been made on land mines and their use internationally, which is now much reduced. I hope that that success will be repeated in the case of cluster munitions.

We have heard other appalling weapons mentioned today, in particular the white phosphorus that has been used by the US, particularly in Falluja in Iraq-

Mr. Ellwood: The Israelis.

Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman corrects me-the US was seen to use it in Falluja, but Israel has also been using it in recent conflicts. We have seen in recent weeks the BBC reports about the horrendous impact in terms of birth defects that is being felt years later. The rate of birth defects in Falluja is 13 times that in Europe. The legacy of the weapons used in a conflict and their impact years later are important. Our responsibility for these weapons, which we have used in the past, was raised earlier in the debate. It is right that we take our share of responsibility for clearing up the mess that we left behind.

I welcome the Bill, although I regret that it has taken us so long to get to this stage. The hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Caton) outlined the timeline of the struggle to take us to this point. The global movement for a ban on cluster munitions started in the late 1990s. The Oslo declaration of February 2007 launched the diplomatic process that led to the cluster munitions convention's being adopted in May 2008. In December, the Government introduced the Bill. Back in 2006, my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey) introduced a private Member's Bill on the issue, but unfortunately the Government did not support it. As has been mentioned, Lords Dubs and Elton also introduce a private Member's Bill in the other place in 2006. Again, the Government did not support it.

Sadly, it has not been easy to get the Government on side. In the past, the Government have argued that there is a difference between smart and dumb cluster munitions and that they should be allowed to keep the smart ones. I remember sitting here in Question Time listening to Ministers defend smart cluster munitions. They argued that smart cluster munitions had a high success rate-but even those killed civilians indiscriminately. I am glad that the Government have finally, belatedly, accepted that the right thing to do is to ban all of them.

I am sure that all Members hope that the Bill will be passed without undue delay, because this November we have the first meeting of the states parties to the convention, and ratification will give us greater influence in encouraging other states to do so. I am pleased to hear of the progress that has already been made on destroying the UK's stockpiles of cluster munitions, with 30 million already having been destroyed. However, I have a few questions about the Bill to which I hope the Minister will respond when he sums up the debate.

First, on the stockpiling of cluster munitions on UK territory, as per article 3 of the convention, the Minister has said today that all cluster munitions will be removed from UK territory by 2013. However, Lord Malloch-Brown used slightly different wording in the past, which was repeated by Baroness Kinnock in December, when she said that, eight years after ratification,

"there would be no permanent stockpiles of cluster munitions on UK territory".-[ Official Report, House of Lords, 8 December 2009; Vol. 715, c. 995.]

As has already been noted, that is not in the Bill, and I am interested to know why. I want to challenge the Minister on whether the expectation that stockpiles will have been removed after eight years represents a firm commitment. I should also like to know about the use of the word "permanent". I understand that the Bill prohibits the transfer of cluster munitions, so we would not expect there to be any non-permanent stockpiles either.

We also have to consider Diego Garcia, which has already been mentioned. The wording that Baroness Kinnock used regarding stockpiling on UK territory was that

"States Parties are required to destroy all stockpiles of cluster munitions under their 'jurisdiction and control'."-[ Official Report, House of Lords, 8 December 2009; Vol. 715, c. 1020.]

She also said that US stockpiles on UK territory are under UK jurisdiction, but not control. I am keen to know from the Minister whether the "and" in "jurisdiction and control" means "and/or" or simply "and". The US is ultimately responsible for those stockpiles, but does not the UK also have responsibility for ensuring that they are not stored on our territory? Furthermore, we have to make the point that the US Department of Defence has not always been entirely forthcoming in divulging details of its activities on that island. How do the Government plan to ensure that the US will comply with the law, in order to ensure that we meet our international obligations?

On Second Reading in the House of Lords, Baroness Kinnock said that she would speak to her colleagues in the Government about possible verification procedures. That is important if we are to have confidence that we are not simply putting a bit of legislation on the statute book, but passing a Bill that will be meaningful and will lead to the destruction of stockpiles. Verification is very important in that regard.

Clause 9 relates to article 21 of the convention, on interoperability, which the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) mentioned. The clause will allow UK armed forces to participate in military actions in coalitions alongside states that are not party to the convention. As we have heard, those states include the US, Russia, Brazil, India, Pakistan, China and Israel. Clearly, it is important to protect members of UK's armed forces in cases where they inevitably have to work with states that, unfortunately, still choose to deploy cluster munitions.

On Second Reading in another place, Baroness Kinnock said that she could:

"reassure the House that, in compliance with the convention, no UK national will request the use of cluster munitions when the decision to do so is within their exclusive control."-[ Official Report, House of Lords, 8 December 2009; Vol. 715, c. 994.]

I understand that guidelines will be drawn up for our armed forces to set out clearly how that is to be understood and operationalised, but will the Minister provide further clarification? Obviously, we do not want our service personnel to be in a difficult legal position when they are in the heat of battle, but neither do we want a situation in which the British armed forces can do everything but pull the trigger, so to speak, when cluster munitions are used in joint operations. I hope that the Minister will assure the House today that all coalition partners will be urged, at the strategic planning stage, not to put UK nationals in the position of having to request the use of cluster munitions, even when the decision to do so is not within their exclusive control.

On ratification by other states, I understand that in December the Foreign and Commonwealth Office wrote to all Commonwealth Foreign Ministers to urge them to sign the convention. It would be helpful to have an update on what responses have been received so far.

On indirect financing, I understand that the convention does not mention financing, but that the Government are taking measures to prevent the financing of the development and production of cluster munitions, and I welcome the Bill's provisions to prohibit such direct financing. The Government have also announced measures to prevent indirect financing, as was outlined in the statement of 7 December 2009. I welcome the commitment to pursue that approach, albeit not through the Bill but through a voluntary code of practice for business. Clearly, this is a complex issue and thorough consultation is needed to find the best way of preventing such indirect financing. I am pleased that the Government have said that they would not rule out introducing legislation to enforce a voluntary agreement if that were deemed necessary. The Liberal Democrats would certainly be prepared to consider further legislation, and I hope that if that were deemed necessary it would also have cross-party support.

The Bill is a good one, doing something wholly positive that will help not only to save lives abroad, but to prevent horrendous maimings. The impact will come partly from the fact that the UK will not use cluster munitions and partly from the important role that we can play globally in encouraging other states to change, too. The Minister has mentioned that seven EU member states and 26 Commonwealth countries have not ratified the convention. I hope that our influence will be used to reduce those numbers and to get more states signing up to and ratifying it. Of course, it is also regrettable that key countries such as the United States have not yet agreed to the convention. It is unfortunate that, despite our special relationship, we have not been able to convince the US to act with responsibility as a major military power in the world.

I shall support the Bill's Second Reading. I hope very much that we can pass the Bill before the general election, and that, given the cross-party support for it, the UK will, whatever the outcome of the election, play a leading role internationally in getting rid of these vile and indiscriminate weapons for good.