Jo Swinson

House of Commons Reform - House of Commons Debate

Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire, Liberal Democrat): I, too, wish to begin by congratulating Dr. Wright and all the members of his Committee, who put so much work into these proposals. However, I share the disappointment expressed by many Members about the way in which this process has been dealt with since the publication of the Committee's report.

The report made it clear that the Committee would like the proposals to be voted on by the House within two months. It is now more than three months since the Committee's proposals were published and it would be a fair characterisation-it would perhaps even be charitable-to say that the Government have dragged their heels on this issue. They announced the date for this debate only after being questioned week in, week out in business questions. In fact, it has taken them longer to bring forward these proposals for debate than it took the Committee to form, call for evidence, consider the evidence, meet, debate and come up with all the proposals.

The Government's lack of urgency has shown that this important subject of reform has not been given the level of priority within government that I would have liked. There seems almost to have been confusion about the different parts of the motions to be put forward and how that could be done, given that page 94 of the report contained a sample motion that was drafted and ready to be put before the House. That would have allowed us to discuss it, rather than to have the Government decide, after asking the Committee to investigate an issue and bring forward recommendations, which ones to cherry-pick and put to the House.

The proposals in the report are somewhat timid. I agree with those who say that they are a step in the right direction, but I would describe them as a baby-step. Given the difficulty that we have had even in getting to this stage of the debate, it has been like trying to take a baby-step through treacle. I appreciate that the Committee was constrained in its terms of reference. We heard an interesting exchange earlier, when a lot of interest was expressed by Members in different parts of the House for taking forward some of the ideas that were not able to be developed in full within the confines of the Committee. Too much was left to later decision or future review, whereas we needed to have strong and robust recommendations, be they on the issue of September sittings, Public Bill Committees or public engagement, to which I shall return.

It is worth asking ourselves why reform is so necessary and vital. We need to remember that this is happening in the context of the reputation of Parliament and, indeed, of our democracy having been dragged through the mire in recent months. Cleaning up our discredited expenses system is a vital part of the solution, but it is only part of the solution.

In May, I asked hundreds of my constituents who are signed up to an online consultation what they thought was necessary to restore faith in politics. I received dozens of answers. Alongside people saying that we needed transparency, an end to personal profit through the expenses system, proper sanctions when people did things that were wrong and a new expenses system, much wider issues were raised in the consultation. Even when the expenses scandal was at its height, my constituents were raising issues such as electoral reform and how to ensure that people's votes count no matter where their constituency, rather than having them count only in some marginal constituencies. Even reform of the House of Commons was a theme that emerged in that consultation exercise; it was common for people to say to me that they thought that the power of the Whips should be reduced compared with the power and influence of individual, independent-minded MPs.

Some of the reforms, such as the election of Select Committees, will help to rebalance that power, because they will reduce the power of patronage of the Whips Offices. Scheduling business through a committee that is representative of Parliament, rather than just Government, will enable individual MPs to hold the Government to account better. My name stands alongside those of 120 other hon. Members in support of amendment (a) to motion 9, which is in favour of the proposal for a House business committee, even though that cannot be voted on tonight. It is important to remember that this is how Parliaments across the world work, and that includes the Scottish Parliament; the sky does not fall in if a committee of people drawn from across the parties decides what Parliament will discuss. This is, thus, a very important reform.

Barbara Keeley (Parliamentary Secretary, House of Commons; Worsley, Labour)

I am looking at an article by Dr. Meg Russell which says that we should not be too romantic about those notions because those cross-party business committees tend to be dominated by Whips. I believe that that is the case in Scotland, as in many other places. As we take this issue forward we must be careful about making comparisons with other places.

Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire, Liberal Democrat)

I agree that what has been proposed is not a perfect solution, but the Minister will know that the report recommended that Back Benchers should also be represented on the committee-that is a very important part of representation. The issue of whether newer MPs would be represented has been raised. If a business committee is properly elected and if there is a large proportion of new Members in the House after the next election, it is highly likely and desirable that new Members would also be elected to it. This is about who sets the agenda. I can understand why it is very convenient for the Government if they do so, but there is no good argument for why they should do so, particularly in our system where Governments are elected without receiving a majority of the popular vote. Parliament, not the Government, needs to control what we debate. The proviso is that we understand that a Government who are elected on a manifesto should have the time to put their business to the House.

One of the problematic things is that, because of the way in which scheduling works, controversial parts of Bills are often not discussed properly in this House. If Parliament, rather than the Government, were to set the agenda, the issues and the parts of Bills that Parliament was most concerned about would be given the most time. As MPs, we need to be able to influence the agenda in order to represent our constituents. I think that this report should be just a stepping stone in the right direction, because I want the public to be able to influence the agenda of this House as well as MPs.

On the issue of business and scheduling, it has been a source of huge frustration to me that there is so little advance notice of business, when we all know that the Government decide and plan in advance on which date the Second Reading of one Bill will be and on which date another Bill will be discussed on Report. It is used as a tool of control and the information is not shared with the rest of the House. That is a ridiculous way to do business. I represent a constituency that is a five or six-hour commute from the House and the business on a particular Monday makes a big difference to me. If I want to be here for its start at half-past three, that affects whether I can hold a surgery on a Monday morning. For this matter to be held out as a case of, "We can't tell people, because it is not decided," when it has been decided is ridiculous. Businesses would not operate in that way, with nothing planned more than 10 days in advance, and nor would other professions. We should certainly operate in a much more organised way.

Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

In what way will a House business committee stop that happening? My understanding is that we will not have business scheduled months in advance. It might be that things are far worse and that business is planned less far ahead.

Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire, Liberal Democrat)

If we remove the power from Government alone, we will open the door to that debate. I agree that such changes will not necessarily follow, but I was raising the point as I think that it is ridiculous how we plan business. I hope and have more confidence that, if I have colleagues on a House business committee, they might be more likely to listen to my views-I will certainly argue for those views. It will also be in everyone's interest if not only one party knows what business will be discussed on a particular day.

Let me turn to public involvement and engagement, which is what I particularly want to mention. The report is good on warm words, but light on specific actions. At least it opens the door to greater public engagement in future and suggests that it should be reviewed and reconsidered in the new Parliament. I think that this was a missed opportunity, and so I have sympathy with the comments made by Natascha Engel about the fact that the Committee did not consider in full all of the issues that it could have.

On public engagement, there is much that needs to be done, because this place is so alien to most people who turn on BBC Parliament-if they do-and watch what we are doing in this Chamber as well as the way in which we do it. There are many opportunities, particularly with new technology, to reach out and to engage the public better, yet this House seems to be good at missing those opportunities. My hon. Friend Sir Robert Smith mentioned the Procedure Committee's report on improving the petitions system. The Committee produced an excellent report, and what happened to it? Nothing. We have had the report, which said how we could do it, but we are still saying, "Oh, we should consider this at a future date." It is not rocket science-we could just get on and do it.

Two years ago, I started campaigning to allow clips from the filming of Parliament to be shown on YouTube so that people could share them with their friends or so that members of a pressure group that might be interested in a particular exchange could see them. It is getting there, but progress is so slow. Now we are allowed to put clips on YouTube, but there are ridiculous restrictions-we cannot share them, for example, and comments need to be moderated-that are wholly inappropriate when it comes to understanding how the internet works and how people engage with it. There has been an excellent campaign called "Free our Bills", which seeks to ensure that legislation online is tagged to make it easy for the public to follow different stages and to comment on what is happening, but the cogs move so slowly in this place when we try to get change.

I have sympathy with many of the points raised by Mr. Dhanda, which he also raised in his speech during the hustings for the speakership, about allowing our constituents to vote directly to express the things that they would like us to discuss-whether they do so through online or telephone polls or through encouraging people to sign early-day motions that, once they have received a certain number of signatures, will require a debate to be held. There is no reason why we cannot consider engaging the public in such ways. It is a real shame that we do not yet have those proposals on the table to vote for today, or for next Thursday when the many votes might happen.

I wholeheartedly hope that this report is not a conclusion to the process of reform but the beginning of it. We need radically to increase public engagement in this place. Martin Salter talked about the process of reform. Let me say to hon. Members that people outside this place look in and wonder what planet we are on with our archaic rules, procedural wrangling and bizarre traditions. The measures outlined in this report represent modest progress, but progress none the less.

It is frustrating how even these mild reforms require such energetic campaigning to get votes on the relevant measures and to get 130 signatures so that we can have a debate on a particular motion, but I am glad that we are doing that. I truly believe that this House will be able to regain credibility and legitimacy in the eyes of the public only when it wholeheartedly embraces reform, but that does not seem to be the case currently. Today, we have heard impassioned voices from both sides of the House in favour of reform. We need to back this report as the first step to that reform, and to work together in the coming months and years to continue the process of creating a House of Commons that is fit for the 21st century.