Jo Swinson

Members' Allowances - House of Commons Debate

Jo Swinson: Some Members will know that I am a bit of a fan of new technology. I like using podcasts, Twitter and Facebook to engage with my constituents. In particular, I have campaigned in the House-for example, through early-day motion 1319-to allow clips of Parliament to be shown on YouTube. Perhaps, amid all the criticism, we should commend the Prime Minister for at least trying to embrace new technology-although, sadly, he has not quite got the hang of it. He said in his YouTube video that he wanted to hear the public's views on MPs' expenses, but then did the online equivalent of putting his hands over his ears by disabling the comment function. That does not make sense.

Diane Abbott: I share the hon. Lady's enthusiasm for new technology, but my fundamental objection to the Prime Minister's appearance on YouTube is that, instead, he or the Leader of the House should have come to this House and made a statement that could have been questioned.

Jo Swinson: The hon. Lady has made her point.

It is certainly true that there were many concerns about the procedural way in which this matter came to our attention. The concept of the Government trying to reach out more through electronic technology is, in itself, a good one, but it has to be done properly. The Prime Minister does not really "do" listening. Instead, in a frantic rush to be seen to be doing something-anything-about this issue, he did not stop to think whether he was doing the wrong thing. We ended up with that ridiculous proposal, apparently intended to try to promote better transparency, to give us the cash, no questions asked, for turning up at the House of Commons. I am very glad that that did not make it on to today's Order Paper. However, there is no denying that the Government's confusion, U-turns and general lack of consultation have been deeply unhelpful to the whole debate.

I have a certain sympathy with the Leader of the House. She has been sent here to attempt to clear up this whole disastrous episode, which is not an easy job. I have a lot of sympathy also with those who have said that it does not make any sense for us to vote on the later motions if the Government accept the amendment to the first. It is slightly farcical for us to say, "Leave it all to Kelly" but then have those votes.

It would have been better if a small number of urgent changes had been consulted on properly, introduced and enacted with the minimum of fuss. Instead we have had a mix of some good changes, many half-baked ideas and some changes that would just have made the whole system murkier. That said, we all know the depth of public anger on this issue. Given the motions before us, if the Government intend to press them, and given that the Kelly report might not be completed until the end of the year and therefore the changes might not come in until well into 2010, we must consider whether it is justifiable to vote today against measures that would clamp down on some of the abuses of the system. I think not.

Motion 5, in particular, is long overdue. Rather than saying that something under £25 does not need a receipt, ensuring that receipts should be provided for every expense that we incur in our parliamentary duties seems to be common sense. I have called for that before in the House, and I will certainly support it today. Most of our constituents cannot understand why there is a different rule in the House of Commons from that in the real world. In most jobs, expense claims are accompanied by receipts as a matter of course.

We can clearly deal with some problems today, but many more complex reforms are needed. As many hon. Members have said, the House of Commons has sadly shown itself not to be very well tasked with making those reforms or up to the job, whether in the vote last July that kicked out the reforms proposed by the Members Estimate Committee, the Government's attempts to keep everything secret back in January or even the mess that has been created over the past 10 days. That is why the independent review by Sir Christopher Kelly is so important.

I am sure that all Members have had constituents raise with them many other issues of concern, particularly on second homes. People do not understand the designation of second homes, and why it seems to be possible for that to be decided on for the convenience of the MP involved. That clearly has to change. The John Lewis list caused huge public outcry and anger, and there is the problem of MPs making capital gains from properties partly funded by the taxpayer. I know that some in the House make the argument, which I understand, that it is often cheaper for the taxpayer to pay the mortgage interest on a bought property. I am sure that the flat that I rent may cost more, particularly with interest rates as they are, than the flats that some hon. Members have bought and claimed mortgage interest on. But surely it would not be impossible to design a system whereby the House of Commons had a portfolio of accommodation, so that the House would benefit from the capital gains and, over time, the cost to the taxpayer would actually reduce.

We will all make our own representations to the Kelly review, but it is absolutely clear that the best way to proceed is to have an impartial arbiter to make a comprehensive set of proposals that we can use to start rebuilding public trust. Transparency has to be a fundamental principle of any system of MPs' expenses, because then whatever the system is, if there are problems with it, they will very soon come to attention and be nipped in the bud. That is why I will vote today to increase transparency in the expenses system.